Breaking the Stigma: Matt

Have you been thinking about getting mental health help but afraid to do it? Are you afraid of what people might think?

This episode is for you! 

Join us as we dive into Matt’s mental health journey, as he shares how and why seeking mental health support was the best decision he made for his life.



Matt, Nicki Kirlin, Jenna Fortinski

Jenna Fortinski  00:02

Thanks for joining us, Matt. Nikki, do you want to get us going?

Nicki Kirlin  00:05

Sure That sounds great. So Matt, do you want tell us a little bit about yourself?

Matt  00:10

Sure. I’m 38 year old engineer, father of three, who’s employed the oil and gas industry in Calgary, Alberta. I live outside the city, about half an hour away. And I commute back and forth every day.

Jenna Fortinski  00:28

And where do you commute to?


commute to downtown downtown Calgary? And you have three kids?


What do you weigh?

Nicki Kirlin  00:36

What are the ages of your kids?


I have two boys. 10 and eight. And a daughter is four. Oh, awesome.


The boss.


Yes, that’s right, as she should be. Yeah.

Nicki Kirlin  00:48

So What kinds of things do you guys do like in your weekends or your time off when you’re not busy working?


So we have, we have a bit of livestock in our place. We have 12 cows of some shape. And we have a bunch of chickens. So that keeps us quite busy on weekends and during the week. And then all three kids also play hockey. Wow. Right beside where we live there.


It’s busy. That is busy. For sure. Yes. And are you involved in the kids hockey at all?


Yeah. So I coach the boys hockey team. And then we just shuffle my daughter back and forth to the rink.



Jenna Fortinski  01:24

That’s awesome. Brave. It’s very brave. Yes, exactly.

Nicki Kirlin  01:29

So you you’ve got a pretty, pretty busy scenario going on there then. Sounds like


there’s always something on the go. I think I’m wonderful Canada. Weather always brings us nice treats like mine months of minus 40.




that requires extra attention around our house, dealing with animals, as well as commuting increases commute time back and forth. That means less family time.


Yes. Yeah.


You’re on the kids. My wife and I.

Nicki Kirlin  01:56

Yeah, of course. And when COVID hit where you? Like, while we’ve been doing this whole quarantine isolation thing. Have you been working from home at all? Or do you still go into the office or?


Yeah, when COVID started, we we were one of the last companies I would say in downtown that was actively pushing people back to home. But now that once it had been in the second wave, everybody was forced to work from home, which includes myself. Yeah. And the kids were at home. We were we have a 1500 square foot bungalow. So we had three kids at home. Me at home trying to work yeah, you know, conference calls kids are running by and then you out in the cold weather where they’re not able to go inside towards December, January made it tough.

Nicki Kirlin  02:40

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I know. everybody’s life lives just totally shifted, and everything turned upside down. We’re all forced to figure out how to live in this new way now. Right.


I never thought I’d be begging to go back to the office. Yeah.


You and many, many

Jenna Fortinski  02:58

other amateur. I think the good news is is that everybody is easier on each other though, knowing that we’re all in the same situation. Right? Yeah. So if you do have the kids running by, I think people are a little bit more understanding than maybe what they would have been in the past. That’s right. Yeah, absolutely.


That’s good. It’s becomes sort of Comic Relief or conference calls.


Yeah, yeah. Kill yourself. I


can hear your kid.


Yeah, yeah, that’s right, exactly.

Nicki Kirlin  03:23

Okay. So as we mentioned, sort of at the beginning of this episode, we’re gonna be focusing on mental health and why it’s important that we focus on mental health and having this conversation about making sure that everybody’s mental health is good, and in a good state. So kind of along those lines, we wanted to cover a few different questions with you today, Matt, and one of the first questions is, so how would you describe your general mental health state? And I’m talking about before you ever got any kind of professional help? What would you How would you kind of describe it?


Sorry, sorry, you’re asking me prior to

Nicki Kirlin  04:03

prior to getting any counseling?


What was my mental health say? Like? Yeah. Interesting, I guess is the best way. Yeah.


It’s, I can’t I can’t even remember to be honest with you. Okay. So it was, you know, it’s confusing. It’s stressful. It’s, it’s all those things all at once. Everything wrapped into one. We have family pressures from both sides. My wife and I, we have three kids. We have worked with all these things. Yeah. And it’s never It’s never easy. Like, I don’t think having three kids or one kid makes it any harder or less, less difficult is that it’s all stress in the situation. So for us, for me, particular specifically, I can’t even remember what it was like. I just remember feeling overwhelmed.

Nicki Kirlin  04:53

Right. Okay. Yeah. And I think that’s a common or general sort of concern that a lot of us Live with on a daily basis, right? So then what I guess caused you to think about getting help? When you when you first made that step of Okay, like this something something has to change? Or was it just a general feeling or what kind of led you to that moment of actually actively seeking out the help?


So I had an incident with my family. And that’s kind of what pushed me over the edge. I remember leading up to it, it was, like I said, you know, you just feel overwhelmed. But it was one of those things where you, I never thought, being a confident person that I’m very confident myself, I don’t have any issues with anxiety or anything like that. It was just that I always thought it was something I could just handle. Okay, life is yes, I can deal with this. Yeah, it’s not that big of a deal. You have kids, you have a job. So what so does 5 billion other people? Yep. What’s Why is it so hard? Why can’t I just fix this myself?


Right? Okay.


Maybe like the scientific background came in was like, well, there’s, I have a problem. Let’s try and find a solution. So you just keep doing this. But I wasn’t realizing what the problem was, I think, Okay. band aids every time. Yeah. And it wasn’t getting anywhere we kept getting kept getting worse and worse.



Nicki Kirlin  06:18

I know that that makes a lot of sense. And I think, again, that’s a common solution that a lot of people experienced. And I’ll look to Jenna to, to share a little bit more on that, of why people generally what causes them to take that step of seeking help, what have you heard in your, in your private practice?

Jenna Fortinski  06:35

I think the the general blanket statement is that you’re realizing that it’s interrupting your daily life. And whatever you’re experiencing is that you can’t be your normal, productive self, right. So there’s something that’s getting in the way, and maybe you visited the doctor, you’ve visited the chiropractor, you’ve you know, seen a naturopath or whatever it is, and you’ve checked all these different avenues. That’s what I’ve usually found with my clients is that people are going down all these avenues typically that their benefits cover, or what they’ve heard from their peers. And then they come along to this end to the road where they’re like, oh, maybe I should talk to


someone about what’s going on with me.

Jenna Fortinski  07:11

Right. So I think that I think the overall consensus is that there’s some sort of disruption to your daily life or your professional life, and you just aren’t able to perform the way you usually would. Okay.

Nicki Kirlin  07:26

And so, for you, Matt, then how did you go about finding help and getting the help? Was it somebody that you knew of, or did you do a Google search? Or how did you go about finding


finding I had a recommendation from somebody, and it was they were vetted, this person said, so the person is excellent as counselors. Excellent. Yeah, they’re exactly what you need. And I believed in them, and then I went to see them. Okay. And I think the hardest going back to that thing will make a decision as to when do you actually do it? The hardest part for me? No offense. Was that


man taken? Yeah.


The hardest part is it? It kind of seems like it seemed like bs to me. That’s right. For sure. Is it was like, What are you gonna tell me that? I don’t know already?


Yeah, absolutely. How


is this gonna make me any better me going to sit on the couch and tell you all my problems? I’m going to walk out of there fixed? Well, I didn’t believe in that. And I struggled with the fact that there’s nothing to it. It’s not rocket science. So why do I go do that? You know, and that’s, like, Jenna just mentioned, you have to check all these boxes and stuff. But sometimes it’s not. Sometimes it’s the fact that you just don’t think that it’s going to do anything to you.


Yeah, of course, just.


Yeah, like I said, it’s BS.

Jenna Fortinski  08:42

Yeah. And story of my life as a psychologist is that, you know, I encounter that quite a bit is, you know, people saying, Well, what are you going to tell me that I haven’t heard before, or that I haven’t read in a book or seen online, that’s going to change what’s happening for me. And I think that that’s a very common thought process. So thank you for speaking to them.


Yeah. Yeah,

Nicki Kirlin  09:05

no, I think I think it’s great that you’re that you’re honest, because I think that is a general conception. And part of why we’re having this conversation is to illustrate that that actually isn’t the case. And you hopefully you’re going to share that with us to from your own experience. So

Jenna Fortinski  09:19

and to normalize that thought process.



Jenna Fortinski  09:22

that to that. You know, I think there’s a lot of people out there that think that and still believe that. Yeah, and, you know, hopefully the people that are wondering they will be more inclined to reach Oh,


yes, definitely.

Nicki Kirlin  09:38

Okay, so I guess you you kind of just touched on this, but your general feelings about getting the help you obviously you weren’t convinced that it was going to help you Was there anything else that you were feeling sort of when you after you made that phone call or you set up that appointment? Did you feel nervous? Did you feel excited?


Oh, yes, skeptical. Obviously.


I was super nervous. Yeah, yeah, I would never sugarcoat it. I remember walking up to the door of this, this lady’s house. And I didn’t know what to expect.




like, because of the sir. There was so much doubt in my mind that this was actually going to do anything and actually change anything in my life. Yeah, I was so distracted by all my other stuff I had going on. I was like, This is such a waste of my time. Yeah, I’m doing so many other value adding things right now, rather than sitting here talking to this lady that doesn’t know me, right? Yes. How she gonna tell me what I need to change what I need to do. Because you don’t? You don’t know me? Yeah. Mm hmm. And that was I still can remember that feeling? Yeah. And then you get down there. And it’s like, wow, this is crazy.


Maybe it actually does help.

Nicki Kirlin  10:52

There’s a reason why there’s tissue boxes in every therapy. Yeah.


Yes, no, that’s and I think that’s, I think that’s spot on.

Jenna Fortinski  11:00

I mean, that probably is a common experience for most people.

Nicki Kirlin  11:06

So then, I guess my next question was going to be, did the experience meet your expectations? And if it didn’t, what was different about it?


it. So I guess, going back to what I was just saying, I didn’t really have any expectations, my expectations were, get through this, get on with it, say I went saw this person, then I’m done with it. Right. I can go do what I think is right.




And it was amazing. It was honestly, like, you know, I got into some stuff. And she started asking questions, and it was like, I couldn’t answer them. Because it was, it was a tough place to be. Right. So at that point, I was like, okay, there’s obviously something going on here. Because this shouldn’t be happening. Yes. Like, you should be able to ask somebody a question and then answer, and then not have to feel like, like, so uncomfortable. They come out of your mouth. Yeah. Right. Like, how do you? How do you get to that point in your life before you go see somebody? Yeah. Shouldn’t you shouldn’t have to wait that long? Yes. Yeah, that was that was for me was the big, the light in the sky or whatever? It was, wow, I really need to be here. Okay. And you’re there for three hours. And you don’t?

Nicki Kirlin  12:27

That’s excellent, though. Because I mean, that that just validates that, you know, you made the right choice. And yeah, in taking that step and being courageous enough to do that. In the end. It does. It takes a lot of courage to get there. Right. So, then how, like, when you left that day, how did you feel?


I felt like I had a lot of work ahead of me. Okay. I realized, like I said, when I was in the session, I realized how, how much how many things I had to cover and how many things I had to go through how much work I had, how much work was in front of me, because it’s not something you can just fix, like a light switch. It’s practice. It’s every day, it’s all day, every scenario you’re in, whether you’re dealing with coworkers, your kids or your parents or siblings or whatever it is, it’s every everywhere you go. And for me, that was the hardest part is because I didn’t have to fix one specific thing. I had fixed everything.


I had to change my approach and everybody.


But the second I did it, it was instantaneous results. Right? It’s just me practicing to be like that all the time. Yeah, I saw the results right away. Yeah, the same time. So the first meeting I had after there the first conversation I had, when I left there, I saw it was a different outcome than it would have been. Okay, so I saw it right away. Wow. Yeah. Easy. It’s just the practice came from me having to do it all the time. And yeah,


okay. And so,

Nicki Kirlin  14:01

when you when we’re talking about maybe taking that first step of going, going into a first session, and what what can What can you share in terms of what that first session looked like? Like, was it a lot of talking? Was it a lot of question asking what what was your experience with that? And, um,


for the record, before we get into that there’s a lot of people that no me prior to me going there, that would have never believed I would have went,




And so I’m not like a big guy. I’m very masculine. I grew up in a very masculine household. Yeah, it was. It’s hard for people like me to go to do something. Yes.




But in saying that, when we got into the session, it was. It was just talking. So like, exactly what we’re doing here, right. Tell me a bit about yourself. Who are you? Yeah. What are your kids names? You know, what are your kids do? That kind of thing. And like, why do you think you’re here and those leading questions, and they just direct you? And, yeah, it wasn’t hard. Okay. Like, it wasn’t uncomfortable. It wasn’t like when I spoke about the questions being uncomfortable earlier, I didn’t mean, like specific questions. It was me not feel uncomfortable to answer those questions,


right? Yes. Or something was wrong. Yeah. So


I think that, for me being in that in that first, first session, or whatever you want to call it? Yep.


It was a huge relief. Okay. Yeah, I


was like, wow. Like, my life is gonna be different. My kids life is gonna be different. You know, my wife, my, my, my family, everybody around me will be different, because I’m going to help everybody by changing myself. Okay. So,

Nicki Kirlin  15:55

yeah, no, that’s, that’s fantastic. And so what? So you had your sort of initial session where you, you know, you had maybe that exploration of what was going on for you. And you had that chance to kind of talk it out? What did your sessions look like after that? Was it more of the same of like, these really great conversations, or did they shift at all or?


So it? Yes, initially, the sessions were more about kind of an update from where I was last time. Maybe there was some specific way to work on, and then we would review how what the outcome was, by the end of it. I haven’t been in about a year now. And by the end of it, it was more about I would bring in specific examples of things. Okay. So we evolved from this great big, yes. Why base to narrow in on certain things. Okay. And that for me, that’s what I needed. Right? Everybody’s different. Yeah. But it goes for different reasons. But for me, specifically, that’s what I what I needed. Okay. And now I’m at that specific point. Okay, so I don’t go see that person anymore. But I have other means to other help.


Yes, somebody that


I trust. And that’s who I use now for those specific examples. Okay,

Nicki Kirlin  17:04

awesome. And so what can you share with us, then, maybe some of the specific strategies that you learned about whether it’s in relation to your work or in relation to your family, like your home life, like, did you give us some examples of some of the things that you learned, one


of the best things I got out of there, I use it every day still was. She said to me, we were talking about the pressures of work. Working in oil and gas, especially right now is not easy. I mean, no job is really easy. But there’s just added stress, there’s media, there’s all these other things that are going on in the background. So when you have a bad day at work, and you come home, the kids are at home, if you take three seconds, before you walk in the door, and just and put a smile on your face, your entire night changes with the minute you walk in the door, and you’re in a bad mood, because you had a bad day at work, and everybody gets it. Everybody has bad days of work. But just smile for one second when you walk in the door, and it changes your entire night. To me, that was something that was so powerful, because I do a lot of daddy’s work stressful. Now, if somebody cuts you off in traffic, you got a flat tire, your truck broke down, whatever it is, it doesn’t matter. At the end of the day, you’re going home to your family who loves you. And the most important thing is being happy to be around them. That was so powerful for me.

Jenna Fortinski  18:26

That’s amazing. And it’s amazing how simple and Jana talks about this a lot in her practice, but what a simple practice that is and and how life changing it can be right? And how easy it is to implement in your life. Like it’s a very specific strategy that you say, Okay, I know, every day I can commit to this. And it’s just something so simple to put into your life. And those are the strategies that I love. Absolutely.

Nicki Kirlin  18:54

Okay, so you mentioned earlier that it’s been a while since you last got any help, but you have been you have somebody that you sort of check in with regularly. So how did you sort of come to that decision to say, Okay, I’m going to shift the kind of support that I’m getting, how did you make that decision? And what influenced that for you?


I noticed that like I said earlier, I was going there for more specific reasons. And I noticed the big change in my family, more so than anything with my kids. Everything from discipline to happy times to everything it was I changed my approach with them all, all the way through our our lives have been so much better ever since. Okay, for me. I’ve had a lot of a lot more success at work with different kinds of people in different departments and everything. There’s lots of different personalities, and that’s where I’m struggling with the two main avenues of struggle,


right? Yeah.


So for me once I saw a lot of success there, I was like, Okay, let’s take a break. Let’s see how it goes. And I’m not saying I’m done by any means. Yeah, of course. I’m just saying at this point in my life. I feel good. I feel confident and If I ever, I wouldn’t ever hesitate to go back


for one second, right? Yeah. I don’t think you’re ever done. I agree.

Nicki Kirlin  20:09

Yeah, absolutely. And Jenna, you probably have some thoughts on that as well. Yeah, I

Jenna Fortinski  20:14

think, you know, Matt’s example is is such a good example of the course of therapy over a lifetime, right is that once you’ve developed that relationship, and you know, that person is there, you can take what we would call like a therapeutic break, and you go and live your life and use the strategies that you learned and implement them. And there’s going to be times where the strategies don’t work, or they stop working. And you can always go back and get, you know, a booster session or you know, reengage for a couple months to get new strategies based on what’s happening in your life at that time. Because our lives do change, and we have different situations. I think for the most part, people get really good strategies to start as a baseline. And then like I said, as maybe life changes or shifts, then it’s a good idea to go back. Once you build that relationship, if it makes it easier to go back for sure. Yeah,

Nicki Kirlin  21:06

absolutely. Yeah. And so Jenna, then what would be your advice to our listeners in terms of them? Maybe taking that first step of seeking, seeking help? What do you what do you recommend people look for when they’re when they’re looking for somebody? Or for practice in general? or? Yeah,


yeah. So there’s,

Jenna Fortinski  21:24

there’s a lot of factors. And I think what I’ve learned, you know, over the course of my career so far, is I think clients do well, when they feel really comfortable in the room with somebody, when you feel like it’s a very natural conversation, and you feel like this is a comfortable and safe place for me to be. So there’s so many factors that go into that. And there are also so many therapists that do their work in different ways, right? So for me personally, just for example, I’m very much I’m going to sit in the room with you, let’s just talk about life. And then we’ll do the work probably without you even knowing you’re doing the work.


Okay, so that’s my style.

Jenna Fortinski  22:04

There’s other styles where they’ll take notes, and they’ll, you know, ask you very specific questions, very specific strategies. So there’s lots of different types of therapists out there. And don’t just assume that the first one is the best one, you might find somebody that you know, fits a little bit better. And also, maybe over the course of your life, you might find that you need a therapist that’s using different strategies or has a different way of operating. And that’s okay. So don’t ever feel like you’re married to one person for the rest of your life and to feel free to explore because there’s lots of good therapists out there.


Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s really good advice.

Nicki Kirlin  22:41

And so, Matt, just to get back to then, you had said before that, you know, you’re you’re at a good place right now. You know, after your experiences of getting help, and so like, how would you sort of compare and contrast your mental health from where it was before you started getting help? And then where you are now?


Tough question. It’s tough question, because like I said, I couldn’t I can’t remember what it was like prior to me going there. So for me, I don’t know, I guess, I guess the biggest thing for me, is my relationships with everybody around me. That’s how I judge how I’m doing.


Yep. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah.


So if I’m having a bad day, like I said, I you know, big guides, it’s very intimidating. So when I have a bad day, everybody knows. Yes. And it’s unfortunate. I don’t mean to come off like that. But that’s how I come off. And I can tell by the responses those around me, right, is that they, I don’t get the same feeling back from them. So I know. Okay, something like, You’re, you’re off. Yeah, gotta change, you know, change your approach. Why are they like that? Why are they thinking like that? And that was something that I never, I never cared about before, I guess, is a good way of putting it. I didn’t care what they thought of we’re gonna do this my way. And that’s it. Yeah. And I’ve learned I’ve come to learn like, No, I have to listen to other people, I think of what their concerns are. Yeah. And why are they? Why are they responding the way they are? What What can I change to help this? Right? Yeah, big driver for that was I wasn’t getting anywhere with a lot of people. Right, I would try and hammer down and push through and they would just resist just as hard as I would push. So for me, it was I needed to change my approach. And and that’s what I do now. And that’s my gauge.

Nicki Kirlin  24:32

Yeah. And that, but that’s fantastic, though, that you’ve been able to what what I’m hearing and that is the ability to even know that you needed to make the change, right? Like that, in and of itself is such a massive step to take to say, I acknowledge that this needs to change and that, I mean, there’s a lot of work that goes into just getting to that point. So that’s, that’s awesome. Okay, so now I want to just shift gears a little bit and talk about this whole piece around Because this is sort of our theme for these for these sessions around stigma and the stigma of getting help in the stigma of mental health. So why do you think Matt, why do you think there is a stigma around mental getting mental health support?


Because I’ll go back to I said at the very beginning, because everybody thinks a lot of people think it’s BS. That’s why. Okay, so I played hockey early, as farmers in the dressing room, and people are sitting around talking about their mental health. Having beers or whatever is not something that comes up in conversation. But it should. I don’t know how you’re gonna get there. But I think we’re making a lot of strides. One of them is people talking about it. I’m, I’m not embarrassed at all, or have any shame or anything. I


tell people openly Yeah, I go see a therapist. Really? What can leave that? Yeah, yeah, of course. Why aren’t you going? question I asked them back.


Now, you know,


I thought about it. And it’s inconvenient, it’s too far away. I’m too busy. Whatever, blah, blah, blah, the excuses go on. And now that I’m sitting on the other side of the table, being the person that was judging everybody before, it’s incredible. I wish that it was almost mandatory, so people could see the benefit in it. Because it has to get to that point almost before people will,


will do it.


But going back to your question about stigma. Yeah, it’s terrible. Yeah. It’s It’s so unfortunate that there’s so many people suffering, and all left to just pick up the phone and call somebody and go down there and see them.


And it’s such a simple fix. Or it can be Yeah, it

Nicki Kirlin  26:38

can be absolutely. And so why do you think the stigma is there specifically for men? Because we all know that, specifically for men, there’s this hesitation to get that kind of help,


because I don’t need that. Yeah, exactly. A lot of time for this waste of time. That’s why I was the same way. Especially in industries where I worked. I’ve worked in mining prior, I worked at all and gas now construction, you have a lot of men in those industries that that don’t have the time of day for it, and they think it’s just a waste of time. Okay,

Nicki Kirlin  27:18

Jenna, your thoughts on that same question, I’ll pose the same question to you. So why do you think the stigma is there sort of generally? And then why do you think it’s there specifically for men? Well, I

Jenna Fortinski  27:27

definitely agree with Matt. And I think that, you know, being a professional in this industry, for the time that I have, I do think, like, I’ve encountered it with my clients and people that have walked through my door and people that I talked to also in my private life, when I tell them, I’m a psychologist, and they look at me, and I’m like, okay, like, what do you do read minds? Yeah. Right. And that’s always the response I get. And, you know, like, there, there is a lot of time and effort that goes into getting the education that we do, and specializing in what we do, and, and seeing the results. And, like Matt said, is that if if people could really internalize that, really, it is just, you know, a phone call, or, you know, booking a session online, and just showing up, just walking through those doors. Right, it can change your life? Absolutely. And yes, for men, I do think that they’re, you know, that there is that, for many reasons. years past, and what we’ve gotten to is people thinking that, you know, it’s, there’s a weakness associated with it, that you’re weak if you need to get help, and how could you not know better? And who’s gonna know you, you know, better than yourself? So yeah, I think that there’s a lot that goes into the stigma, unfortunately for men and mental health. But at the end of the day, if you do just pick up that phone, or look online, and book that session and show up, your life will change. Alright, awesome.


I think I’m sorry, I’m just gonna cut anything. Yeah, no, go ahead. The thing, one of the things that got me there was that they said, if you don’t do for yourself, do for your kids.


Exactly. Yeah.


So that’s something that was so important to me is that if you’re a man, you want to take care of your family and whatnot, then do it properly. Do it for your kids and your wife, as opposed to doing for yourself really gonna be about you in the end. Yeah. But that’s what it takes to get you there. And then think of it that way. So I’m doing this for my kids. Yeah, or whatever. Yeah, my wife or whoever you are my job or whatever it is. Yeah. And that, that’s another way to view it. And that’s what helped me get there was that there’s nothing more important the world to my kids,


and I’ll do it for them. Yeah.

Nicki Kirlin  29:44

No, that’s perfect. And thank you for saying that. Because I think that’ll help a lot of other people who are stuck in that same mode of thinking, yes. Oh, that’s excellent. Okay, so then, and maybe you just gave us this piece, but I’ll ask you to use if there’s anything else that you want to share in terms of Have, you could give one piece of advice to leave with our listeners regarding mental health? What would it be? and Jen, I’m going to ask you the same question as well.



Nicki Kirlin  30:10

think on that one. Let me know what you think.


One piece of advice for me is just do it. It’s, it’s worth every second. There’s nothing more important. There’s no more important there’s no chore, or job or game or whatever it is that you’re that’s keeping you from going, it’s more important than going, Okay, they can’t be because it’s your, it’s the rest of your life. It’s the rest of your kid’s life, your girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever it is. That’s who it impacts, it impacts everybody around you. And then, like I said, it’s the most important thing you have to deal with. So deal with it. Awesome.


Thank you, Jana.

Jenna Fortinski  30:52

That’s gonna be really hard to follow. Yeah. I think I just want to speak to, you know, this thought process of, of psychology and and it being Bs, right. So if it helps you think of us as a medical doctor and equate it to that is that your mental health is just as important as your physical health. And it will be life changing. And I promise you that. Awesome.

Nicki Kirlin  31:20

Thank you. Okay, well, let’s end on that note, then. And let’s say thank you to to Matt, for joining us for this conversation and for being so open and honest. It takes like I said, takes a lot of courage to not only do what you’ve done, but also sit here with us and share your thoughts. So we really appreciate you overall. Yes, thank

Jenna Fortinski  31:40

you, Matt. like we always do we wanted to finish this episode with a quote. This one is from Viktor Frankl. When we are no longer able to change a situation we are challenged to change ourselves.